In this interview, Lucy Katz, the drummer for the socially-conscious London D.I.Y. queercore punk band Dream Nails, talks to Post-Burnout’s Aaron Kavanagh about the band’s latest album, Doom Loop (which is out today), and, naturally (as tends to happen a lot when people talk to Aaron), this turns into a discussion about politics, how everything is fucked, and if we can fix it. Oh, and they also talk about working with the legendary producer Ross Orton!
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Hello! How’s it going?

Hello! Good. How are you doing, Aaron?

It’s very nice to meet you. I’m doing well.

You, as well! You, as well! Thank you very much for inviting us to chat.

Absolutely! I know we’re under a bit of a time restraint, so I won’t take too long.

OK, thank you! [Laughs] No, it’s just that I’m at work. [Laughs]

Yeah, no worries.

I’m happy to chat.

I wanted to just ask about your new album, Doom Loop, that’s coming out Friday. I was wondering if, maybe, you could just explain the concept of a doom loop and what the album is about?

Yes, sure. OK, so, a doom loop is actually a term that originated from…it’s to do with economic…cycles of economic… – Hang on. Wait. Let me just get my…sorry, I just came from a meeting, so I need to get my brain…

Yeah, that’s alright. [Laughs]

[Laughs] So, it’s a term from economics and, I think, from psychology, and a doom loop is, essentially, like, a negative feedback loop. So, another way of thinking about it might be like a vicious cycle. You know, like a crisis that keeps eating itself and feeding on itself. And even though that term…you know, we can understand that quite well in sort of the idea of politics and economics, we kind of are envisaging that we are stuck in a doom loop specifically to do with, like, toxic masculinity and the repeated cycles of toxic masculinities that keep being lethal, and extremely destructive, and detrimental to society and all our lives. So, that’s the concept behind a doom loop.

Yeah, and then when it comes to the album, then…so, I haven’t actually had the opportunity to hear the full album yet, but, of the singles released, how do you feel the concept relates to the songs you’re writing?

Sure. So, maybe I’ll speak…I’m excited for you to hear the album, firstly! Hot off the press, Friday! I’ll be interested to know what you think. So, I’ll talk about each single that’s been released and how it fits into the concept. So, the first song from the album, the first single, “Good Guy,” is also the first track on the album, and it’s about this concept of how so often men are defended or their behaviour is explained away by “Oh, they’re a good guy. They’re just a good guy.” So, I think that’s where we enter the album, with quite a classic, didactic understanding of toxic masculinity and how it can permeate through our social circles and, also, through society. And then moving on to the second song on the album, “Femme Boi.” So, the last two singles, “Femme Boi” and “Ballpit”. While the first half of the album kind of posits our struggle and oppression in more of a political dimension, the second part of the album is more about how we might release ourselves from the doom loop. So, how we might actually break free from that, and one way of doing that is sort of leaning into and enjoying the things that we want and that we need, and sort of hope and joy as something radical and political; sort of political enjoyment and fun being a radical act, basically, and that being one way that we’re going to break through and actually find our way out of these awful cycles.

Yeah, and obviously queer art at its heart is a very radical movement, whether you’re talking about literature, music, film, you know, any kind of artistic medium. Obviously, Dream Nails is a part of that, and what I was wondering was, recently – and I don’t claim to know a lot about British politics; I don’t live in the UK – but, you know, we saw recently the Tory government sort of scapegoating trans people as a means of kind of covering up their own inadequacies as a government, I guess. [Laughs] You know, and you see that kind of…there’s this kind of acceptable…like, in public discourse, this kind of acceptable means of still attacking queer people, in a way that you would think we were potentially moving past or that we were getting past. And, in fact, when I was thinking of queer art during the 2010s – kind of around the same time Dream Nails would’ve been starting – I probably naively thought that queer art was entering a more mainstream acceptance, in terms of it being a celebratory thing, if that makes sense?

Yeah.

But I think it’s very prescient that this album’s coming out now, just a week after, you know, all this trans hysteria…

Exactly.

…has sort of shown that, you know, “Hey, we still need to actually be fighting. We still need to be conscious,” you know?

Oh, not only do we still need to be fighting, but, as you know, our lead singer [Ishmael Kirby] is a trans person, and, you know, I think a big part of the trans experience that doesn’t get spoken about enough – especially in the constant news cycles and all the trans hate that is being spewed, certainly in the UK; I don’t know what it’s like over there but, from every angle, it seems like… – is that a big part of the album is trans joy. “Femme Boi” is a song about the possibility of expressing femineity as a boy, and, you know, it’s absolute gender fuckery, and, like, I think with any oppressed or marginalised people, we expect their story to focus on the negative aspects and the oppression, and while that is really important, I think what is often more exciting and more radical is to sort of focus on the celebration and on the joy. So, it is a really pertinent time, for the reasons that you’ve just said, for the album to be released and, yeah, we hope that the joy feeds through, as well as the frustration and anger.

As a band that’s touring around the UK and that’s very active in queer scenes, what’s the kind of attitude now, at the moment? Is it despondent or are people kind of optimistic, just generally, I guess, from your experience?

You mean sort of like as a band operating within the queer scene right now?

Yeah, so, I mean, like, generally speaking, because I saw…like, the one hopeful thing that I saw from that was… – and, to be fair, my feed is probably more biased because I’m probably following more left-leaning accounts – but, from what I saw, there was a huge rejection of the [Tories], and it was very transparent, of people calling it out and saying, “No, we’re not going to scapegoat trans people in this way.”

Uh-huh.

Is there…do you feel that there’s a sense of…? I don’t know. Like, what do you feel the general attitude is, at the moment?

It’s really hard to tell, and I don’t know…I think Ishmael would probably be the best person to speak to. From my perspective, it seems like, obviously, we operate within the art scene, which is always going to be more liberal and more open-minded, but I think the reality comes down to… – the reality of life as a trans person, as a queer person – comes down to the fact that transphobic hate crimes have risen, I think it’s 11% in the last…I don’t know if it’s in the last six months or the last year. [Editor’s Note: This statistic is from the UK Home Office’s hate crime statistics report, concerning recorded hate crimes in England and Wales during the period of April 2022 to March 2023. The 11% rise in transphobic hate crimes is from this period. Click here for the report]

Jesus Christ.

So, you know, while it feels like from within the communities and from within the scene, people feel very well-supported from within, I think from outside, there is still so…I mean, it’s just the culture wars, isn’t it? It’s just the culture wars; politicians, especially, spewing so much hate about trans people and, you know, that filtering down to public opinion and what trans people, what they experience on the street when they’re going about their business. So, I think it’s hard for me to comment directly, as I live as a cis, white woman, but I think it’s definitely not easy. And, I mean, I have the same problem; my feed and even the band’s feed, you know, we’re kind of surrounded by very left-leaning, left-wing people, so it is hard to gauge all the time.

On the one hand, I have kind of mixed feelings on how social media is bringing these discussions about. I mean, on the one hand, it is giving a voice to the marginalised, who otherwise wouldn’t have had it. Simultaneously, it’s also giving us Andrew Tate, you know what I mean? So, I wonder what the kind of balance is there, between, you know, regulation or…I don’t know what the means of kind of combating that is, in a way that wouldn’t screw over the marginalised while trying to combat the hatred that’s being spewed, do you know what I mean?

Yeah. It’s hard. Also, our roles as artists and musicians, like, art and music are never going to solve anything on their own. Like, the hard political work comes from thankless, tireless, grassroots, and frontline organising. I think that what we’re trying to do is just raise awareness and, especially at our shows, create spaces where people can experience catharsis and can feel genuinely liberated, but, yeah, [Laughs] I don’t have the answer to that, either.

That’s fine! One last thing I’ll ask is, the album is actually produced by Ross Orton.

Yes!

I was wondering how he got involved, and what you thought he brought to the product?

Oh! Well, Ross is a great, great producer. So, I mean, the thing that drew us to him was, obviously, his back catalogue. So, he worked on AM [by] Arctic Monkeys, which is, like, everyone’s favourite Arctic Monkeys album. He worked with Amyl and the Sniffers, that are a huge punk reference point for us, of more contemporary times. We just liked his sound, his sort of special sauce that he is able to sprinkle. He has a great ear, and we just wanted this album to be a bit more, not necessarily “polished,” but we wanted to sort of retain a live energy and the punk spirit, but also give it, maybe,  something a bit more radio-friendly and a bit more accessible to people that haven’t listened to us before, and Ross was kind of the perfect fit for that. And, no, he’s done an amazing job with the album, so we’re very happy about that.

You’re doing a very extensive tour of the UK and Europe coming up. Starting, actually, on Friday itself.

Yes!

Yeah, I was wondering what people can kind of expect of that tour, and what you’re bringing to the shows?

Oh! OK, so, on Friday, we’re starting the in-store tour, which is something we’ve never done before. So, we have six in-store dates all around England, and, in those shows, we’re going to be playing the album, start to finish; more stripped-down, with sort of chat and conversation in between about each track in turn, about the concept of the album as a whole, and, yeah, it’s just going to be…It’s really nice, breaking down the process, and I think, you know, anyone who really loves music is really interested by the process of how you actually write, how you actually record. Like, I was interested about that stuff before I joined…before I was in a band, and, you know, I’m really interested about how films are made, and how TV is made, and how books are written, and that kind of stuff. So, I think that that’s what people can expect from that, is sort of the album as a whole…like, witnessing or hearing the whole arc and, also, having more of an understanding of the process. And then, when we move onto the live dates, the headline shows, that’s going to be pure punk chaos. We’ve got…lots of audience participation. We’ve just put together a really slick live set; it’s primarily the new tracks, we’ve got a couple of old ones thrown in for good measure. Just a little sprinkling of Limp Bizkit, as well, just to, like, set the tone for the whole piece – that’s an exclusive! So, it’s just going to be…it’s just sort of what people could have always expected at our shows, which is queer punk rage and fire, but just a little bit more world-class stadium ready. [Laughs] So, yeah…

The very last thing I’ll ask you before I let you go is, you know, the band’s obviously been around for almost a decade now, at this point. In that time, do you think, em…? I don’t know. How do you feel that the band has adapted to the times as they’ve changed? Because, obviously, I mean, we’re talking 2015, I think that’s just prior to the election of Trump…

Yeah.

…and we see how fervent the right wing, seemingly globally, have become in the acceptable level in attacking marginalised groups; they’re getting confident in a way that I think, even a decade ago, like, they’d be a lot more…I don’t know. They had those views, but they were a lot more kind of – what do you call it? – I don’t know, selective in their wording, whereas now, they just seem to be saying the quiet part out loud. I was wondering how you feel the band has adapted to those ten years?

Yeah! That is a really good question! OK, so, I think that when we all think back to 2015, it just feels like a simpler time, really; it just feels like we were all much more naïve. You know, obviously, there were massive things happening and about to happen, but I think, you know, we are a political band and we exist first and foremost to respond to what is happening politically, and it feels like…that has become even more entrenched in us, because there is so much more…you know, on one hand, it seems like things might be getting better for marginalised peoples, but the experience on the ground is just so extremely different. Also, being caught in the crossfires of culture wars, what we said about earlier, like issues like groups being scapegoated; trans people are a perfect example of that. Like, all issues are suddenly so much more complex and so much more difficult to talk about, and I think some people might think that punk is quite black-and-white and maybe isn’t nuanced enough to sort of incorporate the complexity of some of these arguments, but I think, actually, hopefully, what we try to do is show that the only way forward is sort of empathy. And, actually, I think what we’re trying to do now compared to… – well, we’re all older now, for a start – …than compared to what we were doing in the beginning, when we were much more fuelled by, like, blind anger and rage. And I think it’s probably a part of things being so complex and confusing, culturally and politically, and also the fact that we’ve grown older. You know, on this album we see ourselves much more as like curious observers and commentators, and I think the impetus behind the writing comes from an attempt that we genuinely want to understand. You know, we have a song on the album that’s going to be a focus track released alongside the album on Friday, and it’s basically a rap written from the perspective of an incel. And, you know, it’s not mocking, it’s not belittling; it’s genuinely to understand, why is somebody radicalised like this? Why are young men being radicalised, and are cultivating these views, and this misogyny, and this hate? So, I think our response is just trying to genuinely rather than anarchically being like, “Fuck this shit. Everything’s fucked,” because, like, we all know that to be true but that doesn’t seem to be serving us or anyone, so it feels like the only way that we’re going to progress now, as a band, as artists, and, indeed, as a society, is to try and understand, try and discuss, and just try and figure out what the hell is going on and see if we can, like, tap into our common humanity at some point [Laughs] and see where that takes us, for once.

That’s perfect. I’d love to talk with you again sometime when we have more time. I really enjoyed this discussion.

Yeah, absolutely! And, so you’re based…Where in Ireland are you based?

Dublin.

In Dublin? Oh! We have played in Dublin once, years ago, but, hopefully, we’ll get over to Ireland in the next year or so…

Perfect!

Yeah. It would be great to see you at a show; so, yeah, stay in touch.

Absolutely! Thank you very much for your time, and best of luck with the record.

It’s my pleasure! OK, thank you so much! I hope you enjoy it! [Laughs]

Dream Nails’ latest record, Doom Loop, is out today. You can purchase a copy here. Between today and December, the band will perform across the UK, France, Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, and Belgium. For a full list of dates, to buy tickets, and to follow the band on social media, check out their website. This discussion will also be published as part of our podcast, today at 17:00 (IST), on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Amazon Music Podcasts.

Aaron Kavanagh

Aaron Kavanagh is the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Post-Burnout. His writing can also be found in the Irish Daily Star, Buzz.ie, Totally Dublin, The GOO, Headstuff, New Noise Magazine, XS Noize, DSCVRD and more.