After a two-year absence of new releases, the Afro-Irish musician and producer GNS returns with his latest single “LOVE A LIE,” which is a collaboration with the highly coveted artist V-Sensei. The single was released last Tuesday at time of publication and, the weekend prior, GNS and V-Sensei met at a coffee shop with Post-Burnout‘s Aaron Kavanagh to this discuss their single, the evolution of hip-hop, societal expectations, the power of music collectives, the trials of self-releasing and self-producing, and balancing art with life and work.
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Yeah, I guess the first thing Iโll ask both of you guys is how, individually, did you get into hip-hop and rap?
V-Sensei: Ohhhโฆwill I go first?
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: For me, it was, in secondary school, I was keen on Juice WRLD, Michael Jackson. When I was growing up, it was Sam Smith, will.i.am, Black Eyed Peas.
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: And from there, like, will.i.am was the best rapper, and the Black Eyed Peas! [Laughs] So, there was no debate; I was like, โOh, thatโs something that I want to do.โ Then, as I got older, I came into secondary school, I had the opportunity to do music, but I didnโt play any instruments, I couldnโt sing as much as I do now, so I was like, โWhat do I do?โ So, it came to me sitting at home, playing rap beats, rapping for hours, no matter what song it was. And then, in secondary school, they caught me rapping on top of rap songs. You know, like, the endless songs, where the beat cuts?
GNS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
V-Sensei: Iโd be rapping and rapping and rapping. And then, it wasnโt until like fifth, sixth year that I started rapping properly. It was likeโฆit was just a [Clicks fingers] flip-on switch. Everybodyโs like, โFL Studio.โ I was like, โWhatโs that?โ And thatโs the dawn, you know?
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: And, after that, it was smooth sailing from there; Iโve been rapping ever since. But the only thing I would regret when I was coming into hip-hop music and stuff was the fact that I listened to so much Juice WRLD, it kind of made me oblivious to all the other music genres. So, it really just was emo rap and hip-hop. So, then I started rapping and I got offered Music Technology in Maynooth, but I also wasnโt making too much music.
GNS: Oh, we couldโveโฆ! Awwhh!
V-Sensei: I wasnโt making too much music!
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: So, I was like, โOh, no!โ But on the other hand, I did want to be a nurse, so I did a PLC in Nursing and now, full-time nurse, student nurse or whatever. But never stopped rapping, never stopped making music, you know? Unless you get discouraged thenโฆ[Laughs] Once you get discouraged, youโre like, โAh, my career!โ Imagine youโre a famous rapper, youโre like, โIโm discouraged! No more career for me!โ And thatโs the thing I was scared of, I was like, โIs rap a stable career in Ireland?โ But to me, it didnโt look like it was, so I was like, โPlan B.โ But, at the end of the day, Iโm still here, rapping. But thatโs how I got in. Itโs great.
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: Spill the beans, man! [All laugh] Spill the beans!
GNS: Um, mine has drama a little bit. A friend of mine from Balbriggan โ Balbriggan, where I used to live โ producer, good one. I was his friend, we would hang out and make beats together. He was a really, really good rapper to work with, right? This was, like, when I was in, like, fifth or sixth year of secondary school. And then I was thinking, โOK, Iโm his friend. Let me just try it out, because why not? You know, why not?โ And then it didnโt work out; I mean, it just didnโt work out, as in, like, me and him just didnโt work together properly, you get me? The beats he made, I didnโt really rock with it. I did but, like, I couldnโt actually, you know, flow with it, if you get me.
V-Sensei: Yeah!
GNS: I was bad as well; I could not form a beat. I didnโt know about music, about rapping, about anything. I was actually a โbeginnerโ beginner. I was on YouTube, looking up how to open a beat, how to flow. I did not know anything! I knew nothing, I knew nothing!
V-Sensei: Fantastic.
GNS: Um, whatโs it? I think one summer, for a whole six months, I think I was writing music – Santan Dave, rapper, lyricist, heโs just that guyโฆ.
V-Sensei: Heโs so unique with it, as well.
GNS: Very unique. Heโs just very, very smart with his music. Anyway, I loved that, right? And thatโs kind of what inspired me to just keep writing more. One summer, a friend of mine and I were split on the interface, on the mic. We got the whole set-up in his bedroom; we made one song in that one day. It wasnโt amazing, it was good! I like it! [All laugh]
V-Sensei: Thatโs very humble! [Laughs] Did I tell you about my first song? Letโs not talk!
GNS: But it was fun to make; it was kind of cool. The thing is, he made the beat for me, right? I loved the beat. I asked him, โCould you please do it again? Could you make me more?โ He said no. He said no.
V-Sensei: Why?! [Laughs]
GNS: Why? Because he didnโt want to. He didnโt want to. Itโs a lot of work. Itโs a lot of work.
Yeah.
GNS: So, he told me, โThemba, hereโs the keyboards to make it yourself,โ you get me? So, from there as well, I learnt music theory, how to play keys, and produce for myself and engineer for myself, as well. And then, now Iโm doing the whole shebang.
Yeah. So, when you kind of learnt how to produce and stuff like thatโฆbecause I was talking to a lot of people, like, the pandemic was a big one, where itโs just like everyone had to learnโฆlike, no matter what you were doing, itโs like, if youโre a musician, you have to know how to self-produce and stuff, but you guys were ahead of that?
GNS: I feel like I was, yeah. I was like, only half-a-year in.
V-Sensei: Yeah.
GNS: So, about one year ahead of it. Because, when COVID hit, I was turning 20, right?
V-Sensei: Um-hum.
GNS: Yeah. I was producing during the โ19 summer. I made five beats that summerโฆ
V-Sensei: Five beats that summer!
GNS: Five fully finished beats and I put a lot of time, effort, studying. Plus, I was playing keys. Yeah. From there, I just got better.
V-Sensei: I like that. For me, it was just a lot of playing guitar. Over quarantine, it wasnโt producing, it was playing guitar, and learning how to rap with the guitar.
GNS: Thatโs sick!
V-Sensei: But like the whole Ed Sheeranโฆ [To GNS] Have you ever seen Ed Sheeran perform?
GNS: Yeah!
V-Sensei: Yeah. With the whole slaps on the guitar, and itโs ridiculous.
GNS: Itโs crazy.
V-Sensei: Thatโs what I love. Quarantine, I wasnโt too much into producing, I was just making guitar loops and singing over them.
GNS: You should do it live!
V-Sensei: Yeah!
GNS: Itโs a plan!
V-Sensei: Itโs in motion! Donโt worry!
[To GNS] So, I mean, you have a background in I think it was International Business and Music Studies, is that correct?
GNS: Yes. Thatโs me. Thatโs what I did in college.
So, how do you think that has added to your career, and also just you as a musician, I guess?
GNS: I guess the music part of it helped me with learning aboutโฆhow do I put this? I guess my mind about music in the past was just the fact that it was a laptop, headphones, beats and a microphone and thatโs it. When I went to college, I learnt about recording guitar, recording drums, recording a lot of things differently. The biggest skill was production, if that makes sense. Live production. And the business side of it, that helped me keep track ofโฆthat helped me stay focused. I have a whole release strategy โ like thatโs how I have your email! [All laugh]
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
GNS: Thatโs how he has it as well, you get me? [Laughs] I have a whole planned strategy that Iโve made over the last few years, about releasing my EPK, about pictures, and I guess how to present myself and now itโs through business, I guess. That kind of mindset, business mindset. Thatโs definitely helped. And yeah, I guess I have two minds about musicโฆ
V-Sensei: Did you feel…when you started out, right?
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: Did you have, like, a release strategy or was it just drop music?
GNS: Just drop music! [Laughs]
V-Sensei: I feel like thatโs what it was for me! I assumed that if I make good music, composed music, no matter what [All laugh] everybody would listen! Itโs not the case! Now, itโs like you really have to put time into your marketing strategyโฆ
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: โฆand your strategy for dropping the singles. Because if youโre screaming on the road, โHey! Hey!,โ and nobody knows who you are, nobodyโs going to listen to your songs!
GNS: Thatโs true.
Do you guys think you can circumvent the PRโฆlike the need to hook-up with a PR company, or do you think you can do it yourself?
GNS: Hmmโฆyes, I believe so. I think so. I think so, yeah.
V-Sensei: I think so, too.
GNS: I think with time, with practice, consistency as wellโฆ
V-Sensei: Yeah!
GNS: I think itโs fine. Like, Chance the Rapper, he was on the streets handing out CDs, you get me? And do you know [the collective] Gliders?
Yeah.
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: They wouldโve done in [Mentions location which wasnโt picked up by recorder], they were handing out CDs for the EP.
GNS: Yeah, I feel like theyโre a good example ofโฆthey did it very in-house based.
V-Sensei: Yeah.
GNS: And it didnโt get helped byโฆdo you know Wave God Tonero?
V-Sensei: Wave God Tonero? No, no, no. Iโve heard of him, though.
GNS: Yeah. Heโs an artist, I think also a PR manager, as well. But I think he was more in-house than, you know, most producers, if that makes sense. I feel like Gliders are very much a good example of how like, for example, how they donโt need big brandsโฆ
V-Sensei: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
GNS: Itโs in-house, itโs music, itโs good music as well and itโs just their energy, their vibe, their creativity, that kind of thing.
Yeah, you can do your own in-house stuff. I think a lot of people are doing those kind of collectives stuff now and maybe thatโs an alternative way to go, you know what I mean?
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: Yeah, that might be the new wave of music, one that alternative rapโฆbecause I know plenty of people who think that, even though theyโre big artists, they canโt pull in a giant crowd. But, with people like Gliders, since itโs a whole community, everybodyโs coming through.
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: They can host a gig, like they just did thereโฆand then everybody came through, I was like, โMan, that whole community, they have it on lock.โ
Yeah, but you can kind of do things on your own terms I think, in the sense that you donโt have to play by the rules of the big PR companies, you donโt have to go through like Ticketmaster or something like that, you can go, โFuck it, weโre just going to hook up our own thing here,โ you know what I mean? And I think thatโs the way everyoneโs gone, especially now with self-releasing and stuff, itโs like anyone can release stuff on the internet, like, you donโt need to be on like Capitol Records to do it, you know what I mean? [Laughs]
GNS and V-Sensei: Yeah!
V, I wanted to ask you, because you were talking about doing nursing, I was like how do youโฆbecause, with nursing, the time schedule is brutal. Itโs so unforgiving.
V-Sensei: Yeah, the time scheduleโฆ
So, how do you balance the two?
V-Sensei: At the moment, Iโm currently doing work placement at this nursing home, and the shifts are like eleven hours.
GNS: Wow!
V-Sensei: But itโsโฆI mean, itโs two ten-hour shifts and one eleven-hour shift. But, since Iโm finished collegeโฆthe way Trinity works is, they throw you on placement when youโre finished all your classes, so you donโt have to worry about assignments and stuff and this and that. So, for me, itโs like Iโm only doing three days this week but every other day, since Iโm finished college, Iโm practically on my summer holidays but I work as a nurse, so my daysโฆSo, Monday, Iโd be in a nursing home; Tuesday, Iโd be in a nursing home; Friday, Iโd be in a nursing home. But every other day, itโs like summer holidays, so I can still make music on the time off.
GNS: Yeah, I get that, yeah.
V-Sensei: Like, even this morning, I was just recording the whole day! And I was asking him [GNS], I was like, โWhat are we doing today?!โ [All laugh]
So, with the nursing schedule, Iโve known people in it, and it is kind of like you work so many hours, like a ridiculous amount of hours, and then itโs just like you get a couple of days off and itโs like thatโs used to promote yourself and stuff like that?
V-Sensei: Yeah.
Do you feel like you ever rest, though? Because like if youโre not doing nursing, youโre doing your music and itโs likeโฆ
V-Sensei: You sound like my dad.
โฆit just seems brutal.
V-Sensei: Sounds like my dad. My dad says that to me all the time, heโs like, โYou never rest!โ Because like, Iโll come back from like a ten-hour shift and then letโs say you wake up at five A.M. to be in work [at] seven-thirty, and you finish at, letโs say, half-five, half-six. By the time I make it home at seven oโclockโฆso Iโve been on my feet thirteen hours, but when I get home, Iโm still going to record, you know? And then, the next day, Iโll be like, โOh, Iโm going to the studio.โ The next day, Iโll be like, โI have a photoshoot.โ So, my dad is always looking at me and heโs like, โYou donโt rest.โ And I get sick a lot so thatโs how I know I work too hard.
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: But how do I manage it? Thereโs no management! [All laugh] Itโs just work, work, work.
Yeah.
V-Sensei: Itโs more like ambition. If your ambition disappearsโฆLike, if I didnโt have a passion for music, I wouldnโt wake up.
GNS: Exactly.
V-Sensei: Like, I would just be sleeping in. I would be sleeping in, and I would be like, โAh, it will do itself!โ [All laugh] You know what I mean? Like, โIt will do itself!โ But Iโm glad I do because now I wake up every morning and Iโm like, โOh, I need to finish this. I need to send this to so-and-so. I need to send this email. I need to book this gig.โ
GNS: Damn.
Do you think if you had time off you would evenโฆlike, because I know even for myself, when I get time off from work and time off from this, itโs like I just feel so useless or something. I donโt know ifโฆ
V-Sensei: Oh, no, no, no! Itโs happened! Itโs happened where like, I would go periods of time and Iโd be like, โI donโt have a job.โ [Laughs] Iโd be like, โIโm on my college break.โ You know, over Christmas I was like, โMan, Iโm soโฆWhat do I actually do?โ
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: And I remember asking my friends, I was like, โWhat did I do that made you guys think that I was so interesting?โ And they would bring me back to life. Theyโd be like, โYou used to play guitar!โ and Iโd be like, โOh, yeah! Yeah! I did!โ Theyโd be like, โYou used to watch anime!โ Iโd be like, โWhoa, I did, yeah!โ You know? All the good parts of my life is kind of my friends reminding me what I did.
Sure.
V-Sensei: Thatโs nice.
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: Itโs complicated but hopefully it works out, like.
GNS: Itโs like anything.
Talking about the collab you guys did. I was wondering how you guys met actually, first of all?
GNS and V-Sensei: Ahhh!!
V-Sensei: Vision Lab?
GNS: Vision Lab, The Open Mic. Very first one. [V-Sensei laughs] I remember the day, as well. The thing is, right, I was in the backstage, right? I see a whole entourage. I see one guy in the middle with glasses. Iโm like, โThatโs V-Sensei. Thatโs V-Sensei.โ I just guessed, I just guessed.
V-Sensei: Itโs โcause Vision Lab was the first ever open mic that we did or the first ever performance that I did. So, for me, it kind of kicked off the whole doing gigs in Ireland. โCause I didnโt think โ like I said before โ I didnโt think that music would be a stable career, you know? And I was like, โOh, whatโs going on in Ireland?โ Until Vision Lab, which was a studio I went to, and they said they were having an open mic, and I was like, โWould love to do that!โ And we went, and I met him, I met Olivia [Emade], I metโฆwho else?
GNS: Oh, yeah. Olivia.
V-Sensei: Everybody else kind of slips my mind. You know, because the only people I kind of remember is yourself and Olivia from that.
GNS: Who else was there, though?
V-Sensei: Our boy Jaq – Jaq Reidy โ and Saint, your man Saint, as well.
GNS: Yeah, that makes sense.
V-Sensei: Yeah, and now, since then – itโs the same with Jaq – it kicked off everything. We went from Jaqโs World I and Jaqโs World II, coming up on the 31st of March, which Iโm going to be performing at as well. So, I think itโs like full circle, you know?
GNS: No pun intended!
What made you guys want to collab, then? Did you see similarities in your music or production or anything?
GNS: I have faith in his sound. I like your sound.
V-Sensei: It was guitar. This guy, itโs him moving on a guitar and I was like, โHe can make loops and make beats?,โ and I was like, โHow?,โ you know? And then he hit me up. He was like, โWe should work.โ I was like, โYes, we should work.โ And then he came to my house, and he showed me a beat he made and then he played it for me on my guitar, which I thought wasโฆ
GNS: Crazy?
V-Sensei: โฆmagical! I was like, โWe must, we must.โ And after that, we made a couple of songs, that being one of them.
GNS: Yeah.
The single weโre talking about is โLOVE A LIE,โ and I was wondering what you thought both of you guys brought to it, individually?
GNS: Individually? I guess the beat was one thing I brought to it. The writing was really back and forth between us, yeah.
V-Sensei: I think the energy and the tone of our voices, although similar, are very different, you know? Because I bring the whole emo rap, melodic element, you know, and then he brings the straight, Santan Dave lyricism to it and they just compliment each other really well throughout the track. So, when you listen to the track itโs like, errrrrrrr!, and it turns into actual, like, actual words! [Laughs]
GNS: [Laughs] Actual words?
V-Sensei: Yeah, actual words! Iโm sorryโฆ
GNS: No, your words are good too.
V-Sensei: Half the time, I think Iโm mumbling but to other peopleโฆSee this is the thing, how I knew I made it in music is when people started singing my lyrics back to me, you know? Because thatโs how I knew, I was like, โI mumble a lotโ and they were like, โNo, you donโt.โ
GNS: Itโs good to have lyrics that are catchy.
So, as rappers, what do you think that entails for people going forward? Because I think people understand, as you were saying, the idea of picking up a guitar and doing music that way, in terms of being a singer-songwriter kind of thing. I think when it comes to hip-hop and rap, I think people donโt really understandโฆthey donโt understand, for example, how samples work or how, you know, beats work or anything like that. It sounds like magic or something. [Laughs] I donโt know.
V-Sensei: Yeah.
What does that actually entail for you guys, to actuallyโฆ?
GNS: I guessโฆyour question, I donโt think I understand it. Do you mean like how do I make the samplesโฆ?
V-Sensei: No, what does it mean to be a rapperโฆ
No, I was just wondering how you kind of get into it, because I think people can understandโฆif youโre learning guitar, letโs say, thereโs an understanding that, โOK, if I want to play like this person, I learn their music like this,โ but if youโre wanting to sound like Tyler [,the Creator] for example, what does that actually entail for you guys?
GNS: Oh, OK. If I want to sound like Tylerโฆ
Or whoever, like. Iโm just using him as an example.
GNS: But Tylerโs a good one thoughโฆ
Because I remember you mentioned him in the write-up. [Laughs]
GNS: So, Tyler is mainly synths and keys. Also, with Tyler, I would listen to his music a lot and then find, I guess, a vibe in that and get my keyboard out and just start playing it.
V-Sensei: Yeah.
GNS: And sing about what he would sing about, if that makes sense. Of course, what would kind of make sense to me as well. Iโll try and just bring out my inner Tyler, if that makes sense. Iโll play likeโฆnot play like him but play as if I was playing with him.
V-Sensei: I get what youโre trying at. To me itโs the Juice WRLD. Itโs the sad, emo guitars. Itโs the very sad synths and the bouncy, gross 808s and then, when youโre talking about rap, what they would rap about, for me I think thatโs what being a rapper is – as well as being a musician is โ finding what people can relate to. And the reason I would like Juice WRLD is because I relate to heartbreak and, when you talk about rapping about what he would rap about, there was a lot of heartbreak songs, which is kind of what I rap about from time to time, so often, you know? Ultimately, youโre kind of creating your own sound, as well as drawing the person who inspired you because itโs not just their experience, it’s your experience, and then youโre relating it to yourself, then relating it to other people.
You mention acts like Tyler and Juice WRLD, do you feel that now the realm of creativity in terms of what you can express โ both musically and lyrically โ has opened up, say, more than where hip-hop was, thirty, twenty years ago or something like that?
GNS: Yeah. Itโs so different now.
V-Sensei: I love it.
GNS: Itโs so different.
V-Sensei: Thereโs some parts that I like about it, thereโs other parts that I hate about it.
GNS: Really?
V-Sensei: Yeah.
GNS: Like what?
V-Sensei: Like, have you noticed now how drill is no longer becoming drill anymore?
GNS: Kind of.
V-Sensei: Itโs kind of just becoming resampling old songs, taking that melody, and flipping it in the same cadence and rapping about something else.
GNS: Yeah. Awhh!!
V-Sensei: You know what I mean?
GNS: Yeah, yeah. I get what you mean. Yeah.
V-Sensei: Iโm trying to think of a very good example.
GNS: I think one is Tyler, the Creator won Best Hip-Hop album against DJ Khaled. That was crazy.
V-Sensei: Was Kendrick on that as well?
GNS: I donโt know. I donโt think so. But Tyler won though, right? I think when he won that, that opened upโฆnot opened up but like it gave, I guess, how do I put this? Status to that sound and that genre. Frank Ocean, as well, whoโs an amazing artist. Heโs bi and he raps โ he can rap and he does rap sometimes. Anyway, I feel like thatโs also one way heโs breaking the stereotype, especially in hip-hop and rap. Who else? Lil Nas X as well. Lil Nas X is a crazy artist.
V-Sensei: Oh, my God!
GNS: Do you know that on his album, right, only had like two or three features because the rest of the guys didnโt want to be on it?
Really?
GNS: Yeah, they didnโt want to.
V-Sensei: I love that manโs album. No matter how much hate that album gets, I love that album to date. When it came out, I rinsed it. Oh, my God.
GNS: Heโs talented, heโs talented.
Also, I mean, the social evolution I think of hip-hop. Like, I remember the Dublin rap scene, ten years ago, it was so common like for people to be blatantly sexist or homophobic or something like that, where it seems as now, everyoneโs kind of a little more socially conscious, everyone knows thatโs not cool anymore. I think like, ten years ago, everyone had the same sources, which were like maybe like N.W.A., Eminem, stuff like that, and itโs like everyone was trying to emulate that style but it just didnโt work. They were trying to do offbeat humour kind of but it just came across as kind of fucked up.
V-Sensei: [Laughs] โIt came across as fucked up!โ I know what you mean. Thatโs just society growing up. Anything you can think about in society will change, no matter what youโre thinking of.
GNS: Yeah. Even now, fashion society. I like fashion in Dublin. Itโs kind of a bit different nowadays. I see some peopleโฆ
V-Sensei: Oh, man. Fashion, I only copped onto when I entered โcollegeโ college, you know?
GNS: Yeah, same.
V-Sensei: University. Itโs like, there were so many things that I thought were so basic that are now fashionable.
GNS: Really? Like what?
V-Sensei: Like, just wearing a polo shirt, you know? But now itโs advanced! Itโs like polo shirt, plus a jumper! [All laugh] Now itโs like, โDamn, Iโm not stylish anymore!โ
GNS: I hear that. Yeah, I hear that.
I think the barriers of expression are kind of breaking down, in terms of like fashion or art or music. Do you feel like nowadays it has to beโฆlike, I could imagine now a gig where itโs like you could have any kind of artist on and people would go to it, whereas โ again, Iโm just even going back to like ten years ago or something โ it seemed like everything was more fragmented. It was like, โNo, youโre into rap and you have to go to these shows, and youโre into punk and you have to go to these shows, and youโre into indie and you have to go to these showsโฆโ
V-Sensei: Ah, yes! Yes!
โฆwhere it seems as now, nobody seems to give a fuck anymore. There is kind of like, โLetโs just hang out and do something interesting.โ Do you think thatโs how it is now?
GNS: Kind of, yeah. A little bit. Like, at the open mic night, there was a lot of us that mixed like R&B and hip-hop and rap. And, at the last one, it was your gig as wellโฆ
V-Sensei: Yeah.
GNS: We had Joe Butler, who did basicallyโฆwhat would you call that? Punk?
V-Sensei: I would call that punk.
GNS: Punk rock? Postpunk?
V-Sensei: Yeah.
GNS: Yeah, punk rock. It was differentโฆ
V-Sensei: It was so different!
GNS: It was nice. No-one saw it coming as well, do you get me? But I like that. I like that it was there, and it was just like, โYeah.โ And it was art. It was art as music. I feel like most people now understand how there are different levels of art.
V-Sensei: Yeah!
GNS: And, yeah, they just appreciate it more. The same way I do.
V-Sensei: I feel like, especiallyโฆdo you want me to tell you the whole reason about Joe Butler on the card, as well?
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: Yeah, he was very scared to perform that song. I think you saw that in rehearsal?
GNS: Yeah, I saw that.
V-Sensei: And he was asking me, he was like, โI donโt want to perform that song because I think everybody coming to the gig is expecting a certain type of rap.โ
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: And I think I sat down and had a chat with him. I was like, โThereโs no way you can say that because music is universal. If anybody doesnโt like the type of musicโฆIf nobody can appreciate your kind of music as well as mine, I donโt want them at the gig.โ
GNS: I like that. I like that.
V-Sensei: So, taking away from what we were all doing on the card, which was rap โ emo rap and, you know, boomba, like Jaq Reidy โ I think Joe Butler was the fresh air, and thatโs what everybody said to me afterwards; they were like, โWho was that kid?โ and I was like, โThatโs what I like to hear.โ
GNS: Because itโs different, then everybody wonders what it is.
V-Sensei: And us trying to decipher what it is: Pop? Punk rock? And I still canโt put it into a genre. [Laughs]
GNS: Heโs just so talented, like.
Do you think genre barriers are even disappearing, in a way? Do you think anyone even still gives a shit? Because I see so much stuff being described as like โalternativeโ or โindie,โ and it just seems, at this point, is doesnโt matter anymore, you know what I mean?
GNS: Itโs too much. Itโs too much, yeah.
V-Sensei: Have you seen the Lil Yachty albumโฆ?
GNS: I love it!
V-Sensei: โฆwhere everybodyโs like, โFirst psychedelic rock album.โ So good! I get what you mean but weโre not going to tryโฆitโs crazy.
GNS: Itโs nice, though. Itโs different.
V-Sensei: Itโs so different. Discovering new genres and creating new genres is what people are doing now.
GNS: Damn!
V-Sensei: Thatโs like saying โhyperpop R&B.โ
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: Do you know what I mean, like? These genres that donโt exist are being created and then there always has to be the one person who owns the sound.
GNS: Thatโs true, yeah.
V-Sensei: And psychedelic rock, or psychedelic rap, is now owned by Lil Yachty at the moment.
GNS: For now it is, yeah.
V-Sensei: For now. Now everybodyโs going to start making psychedelic rap and then itโs going to become normal and then itโs going to become just like the rest. But thatโs music for you, so fluid.
Do you think, as music producers, itโs important to have versatile knowledge of music but also taste in music? Because, as I was saying, like I remember when the Dublin rap scene was sort of new, everybody only listened to [Dr. ] Dre and his production so everyone was trying to reproduce that, you know? His style. But that was it, and I think the music became very similar because nobody was expanding their taste, you know what I mean?
GNS: I feel like as a producer myself, Iโve worked with different artists: R&B, alt, rap, just a lot of different people – even myself as well – and I realised how sometimes I donโt see their vision. Artists will come to me, and I donโt see their vision. But I will stay on it until they lay it out for me. They record their vocals, they tell me how they want it to sound and then they finish it and say, โThemba, thatโs it. Thatโs done.โ Iโll hear it and Iโll be like, โNow I see it.โ And itโs like it takes a long time, though, but I really think it helps. I think knowing different sounds in music is very good.
V-Sensei: That reminds me of what one of my friends said to me this morning โ this was a couple of days ago, actually โ I was in the studio, and he was like, โDo you know the time signature to your song?โ And I was like, โWhat the hell is that?!โ [Laughs]
GNS: You donโt know what it is?
V-Sensei: No. I still have no idea. I was asking my producer Jessica, and she was like, โItโs 4/4.โ But to me, I still had no recollection of what that means. [GNS explains how to count in different time signatures. This part didnโt transcribe well, so it has been omitted]. I know what you mean because thatโs how they described it as well and I was like, โWow.โ
GNS: Yeah. But most times itโsโฆthereโs one Baby Keem song, it goes crazy, I think itโs called โORANGE SODAโ?
V-Sensei: Yeah, I know the one youโre on about.
GNS: And itโs 3/4. I tried making a beat around it the first time and I was like, โI canโt make it.โ I donโt know why, but it wasnโt making sense, and then I was thinking, โOh, itโs 3/4, itโs not 4/4โ and I changed time signature and it just made sense. And I think from then on, I might try using odd time signatures to make different beats, different sounds, because it unlocks a new rhythm and vibe.
V-Sensei: Yeah, and I feel like everybody needs to be aware of genres. Because I remember, like I said, Juice WRLD locked me into a lot of emo rap. Like, it was a void. It was a lot of likeโฆTheyโre all kind of the same that I would listen to, and then when I worked with other artists, Iโd be like, โThis isnโt working. Iโm not seeing your vision. Like, what are you trying to do?,โ you know? And then weโd always fall back into emo rap, which is what Iโm trying to step away from now, you know? [Laughs]
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: You know? And my Spotify Wrapped really played into that: emo rap, punk rap, like all awfulโฆugh. I feel like when I started doing songs for different artists, I started listening to other artists recently. Like, Joe Butler is the one I was working with sinceโฆWhich is also how I wanted to put him on the card because I was like, โYou just do a different style of music than me; itโs more indie, itโs more pop rockโ and thatโs kind of the genre that I want to expand into, and alternative R&B, because โMODEL!โ came out there and โMODEL!โ is deemed as that alternate R&B.
Do you think as producers, because [to GNS] you obviously have sort of a foundation in music theory, formally trained. [To V-Sensei] You seem to be just doing your thing. But do you think thereโs utility to that, to having people who are knowledgeable about music theory and then other people who might be adding a different perspective, like who arenโt formally trained, but they can go, โWell, I know this is unorthodox, but this is interesting and we should do thatโ? Do you think thereโs utility to both of those kind of voices in production?
V-Sensei: I say itโs so important to have friends that are kind of well-versed in music, you know? Because a lot of my friends would beโฆThe reason Iโm so happy with the friends that I have is because theyโre all very well-versed in music. Because I remember a period of time where I was making music and the criticism that I was getting was not very constructive, if you get what I mean. Like, it wasnโt like โChange this;โ it was kind of just, โThis is bad, thatโs the end of,โ you know? And, especially in the studio nowadays, most of the people around you will be able to give you that creative output and be like, โOh, go this direction with it. I listen to so much of this music and this is how it goes, it goes, dun-dun-nun-nun-nun-nuh,โ you know? And even Joe being so versed in guitar, thereโll be times where Iโm trying to sing a certain note and heโll be like, โThat note is not in scale, so donโt try and sing, try go down and rap that way instead of going high because itโs not going to work,โ you know? But itโs very important, like.
GNS: Iโm notโฆI wouldnโt say Iโm formally trained; Iโm YouTube self-taught. Iโm not trained! I was very unorthodox as well; I did not know the basics for a long time. I also took breaks. I studied drums, I studied piano, I studied guitar, but I still have an unorthodox, I guess, natural essence to myself, if you get me. So, I feel like it helps me make a lot more stuff.
V-Sensei: I like it.
How do you think making production for other people has expanded your outlook, I guess? I mean, in the sense that, obviously when youโre doing your own shit, you have the idea, โThis is what I want.โ But when youโre doing other peopleโs stuff, you kind ofโฆI donโt know. What Iโm trying to ask, I guess, is whatโs the push and pull of, โHereโs what Iโm addingโ versus โHereโs what you wantโ kind of thing?
V-Sensei: Isnโt that revisions as well? I know itโs happened to me before where I would send a producer a certain track and I would want it to sound a certain way, and Iโd even send a reference track to him, and when youโre paying for these mixes, youโre like, โHow many revisions are you going to do?โ Because thereโll be certain times where you want a mix a certain way, you get it back and youโre like, โThis is not what I want it to sound like,โ and youโll be like, โCan you revise this, and Iโll send you a different reference track?โ until you get it sounding the way you want it to sound.
GNS: I think itโs also knowing who youโre working with, if that makes sense. Like, yesterday I went to another artist, Tara โ Tara Devi โ sheโs very R&B, very solo as well. So, I had to make sure to come with guitar samples, basically, come with a fresh mind, come withโฆI guess knowing what kind of rhythm she wants, if you get me. Like, if Iโm working with V-Sensei, I know the drums hit hard. [V-Sensei laughs] Where with her, itโs like they must swing, you get me? So, I think itโs knowing who youโre working with as well and knowing what you can do in that space as well, as a producer mainly. Itโs a lot of balance to it. Communication, as well.
I guess the final thing Iโll ask is just what do you have planned for the future, immediate or distant?
V-Sensei: Ah, long distance? We have Jaqโs World II on the 21st of March. We have โLOVE A LIEโ coming out on the 14th of March. I may have another gig lined-up after Jaqโs World, canโt say too much about it.
GNS: Ooohhhh!!
V-Sensei: But you know. And then we just have new singles on the way, and I canโt say the names because itโs not set in stone. And maybe an EP later in the year. You know, EPs are kind of like half-albums, I donโt want to be dropping a giant album this year.
GNS: I hear that.
V-Sensei: Yeah. I donโt want to give away too much but thatโs kind of the big one.
[To GNS] And for yourself?
GNS: For me, โLOVE A LIEโ is the first song Iโve released in the past two years. So, Iโve been making music since then, a lot of musicโฆ[Inaudible] So, thereโs some I made like two years ago, and I want to release them badly, but Iโve made more music in the last few months. So, I want to release singles, singles, singles. Hopefully a little demo tape of this new sound Iโve kind of been cultivating. Itโs very much experimental.
V-Sensei: Because thatโs what you want. Thatโs kind of what you want. You kind of want toโฆespecially, the way you said youโve taken a break for two years.
GNS: Yeah.
V-Sensei: For me, thatโs me looking at my Spotify. Iโm like, โSpotify is not doing me any justice!โ
GNS: Exactly!
V-Sensei: Itโs up to me to change that because most of the music I have out on Spotify I wouldโve made when I was 17, and now Iโm 19. So, โMODEL!โ wouldโve been the nicest release because thatโs the sound Iโm going for, that alternative R&B, and I donโt think anyoneโs heard that from me, so theyโre kind of like, โOh, this is the beginning!โ [All laugh] Yeah, Iโve been working on that for a while, so itโs in the vault! Itโs coming! Donโt worry!
When you guys are ever-expanding like that, do you find it difficult to go back to old stuff or are you like, โNo, Iโm happy with this. Iโm good to release itโ?
V-Sensei: Ohhh! Thereโs songs that I want to delete on Spotify! [Laughs]
GNS: Same, same.
V-Sensei: To this date youโre like, โIs this still me?โ
So, do you get precious about what youโre going to bring out to the world or are you very selective?
GNS: Yeah. I think I have one thing as well, like if I make a song years ago and I know itโs not great [Laughs] but I love it still and I could change it, I could change it, but I have a thing where itโs like I would love to actually keep it for what it was in that time.
V-Sensei: Yeah. Yeah.
GNS: And I donโt want to go back and change it, add to it. Itโs like thatโs what it was back then. I would rather give that to the world, what makes sense to you, instead of going back, fix that, change that, tweak that.
Yeah, thereโs something organic about it.
GNS: Yeah, you know? And I wouldnโt actually be able to make it better as well, itโd be different. It wouldnโt be better, it would just be different.
V-Sensei: Well, for me, itโs the exact opposite. Like, I have a certain song that I promoted on TikTok for, say, six months and I never dropped.
GNS: Which one are you talking about?
V-Sensei: Itโs called โNITRO,โ and my friends keep coming to meโฆall my good friends will probably come to me and be like, โWhen is that coming out?โ But I made it so long ago that Iโm like, โIt doesnโt make the cut anymore,โ if you know what I mean. So, I kind of have it deep in my mind that I will go back and not change it but kind of take the beat and change the beat, and then do the same lyrics in the same cadence but add another verse to make it more whole. Because to me itโs still that song and that time. Itโs like doing a remix of yourself, you know? [Laughs] Itโs like what the drill samplers are doing, man! Theyโre taking the same song, sampling it, changing the melody, and grafting it as a new song. It’s maddening, you know?
Do you guys demo stuff live and see how the crowd reacts?
GNS: It happens all the time. I did that at an open mic night that was all unreleased stuff. I was so nervous.
V-Sensei: I was looking at you, like, โHeโs playing all the unreleasedโฆโ
GNS: Unreleased.
V-Sensei: โโฆas if anybody knows it.โ
GNS: Nobody knew it, but they sang along a few times and it was fun. I feel like it kind of helped me understand, I guess, what songs I could do live and what songs I could release in the future.
I always find that a little dicey, when artists do that, when they demo stuff [live] because itโs kind of just at the whim of that crowd that night and they mightโฆ
V-Sensei: It is so like that. Itโs so annoying. Sometimes you will have certain crowds who are with you for the whole thing and, like, if you say โClap,โ everybodyโs clapping, you know, right? But thereโs certain crowds that you have and they donโt really know who you are and they kind of think youโre โthat guy,โ you know, and theyโre like, โIโm not clapping!,โ you know? And it really is up to the crowd that night because thereโs certain songs that are crowd control oriented. Like, I have certain songs that I know to perform because I can just be like [Starts clapping] โEverybodyโฆ[Claps],โ you know? And even if nobody claps, like, the song is still going to go well because of how much is in it, you know?
GNS: Yeah. Itโs scary.
V-Sensei: Yeah. Thereโs certain songs I have that I have sample crowds in the song.
Oh, really?
V-Sensei: Yeah! [All laugh] Thereโs times where I would have like five of my friends in the studio to recordโฆyou know the way you can say a word and then you can have five people saying the word?
GNS: Yeah. Thatโs smart. Thatโs smart.
V-Sensei: Yeah, itโs genius. [V-Sensei goes on to describe this technique with a repeating word in an unreleased song that heโs written. We have omitted this part from the interview because we could not fully hear all of the lyrics in the transcription process and did not wish to misrepresent his lyrics]. But that part is five of my friends in a booth, singing โmulatto.โ So I can be like mula- and it still sounds through the speaker.
GNS: Yeah, that makes sense.
V-Sensei: It makes sense.
GNS: Still, obviously, part of the atmosphere.
V-Sensei: But itโs really up to the crowd. Itโs really up to the crowd.
But yeah, I always thought sometimes you might have artists that might ditch a song thatโs good but itโs just because of the crowdโฆ
GNS and V-Sensei: Yeah!
Or, I donโt know, they might get unlucky with a series of gigs. They might test it out on letโs say three or four gigs and itโs like itโs a pity that didnโt make it, you know what I mean?
V-Sensei: Yeah, it happens, like.
GNS: Itโs a risk. Itโs a big risk. But I like it. Itโs fun.
Anything else youโd like to add just before we wrap up?
GNS: This is a conversation. [To V-Sensei] I want to ask you a question.
V-Sensei: Go ahead.
GNS: Are you a rapper?
V-Sensei: Not a rapper! [All laugh] Not claiming that rapper title just yet! Because if I claim the rapper title, I have to come for the crown. I have to go and fight everybody for that title. For now, I can say Iโm a singer-songwriter who dabbles a bit in rap for most of his music. But โrapperโ is not the title that I wouldโฆYou know what I mean? Iโm not so adamant on saying that Iโm a rapper; I would be like, I write songs. I write music or whatever. But โrapperโ is a strong title. Even to this day, Iโd be like I rap, but does that make me a rapper, you know?
GNS: Yeah. What about โartist,โ then?
V-Sensei: โArtist,โ yeah. โArtist,โ โmusician,โ โperformer,โ โsongwriter,โ โsinger,โ all of that. โRapper,โ I have to come for the crown with that one. Like, I have to go and own everybody!
GNS: Damn!
Well, I remember people who claimed to be a rapper when they havenโt rapped yet, soโฆ[Laughs]
V-Sensei: Yeah! I remember people who wereโฆyeah, claiming to be rappers. Havenโt made a single song! Iโm like, โEhhhโฆโ
GNS: Thatโs different.
V-Sensei: Thatโs actually different. You can rap. Yeah, you can rap without a beat. You can do that.
GNS: Thatโs true, yeah.
Yeah, so you guys make that important distinction?
GNS: Yeah. I think itโs important. Because it depends what people see you as, as well, you know? Because I donโt call myself a rapper, but Iโve had people say, โOh, youโre a rapper, arenโt you?โ a fair amount!
V-Sensei: Yeah!
Including me! [Laughs]
V-Sensei: It feels like a stigma nowadays because you rap and they have a certain switch in their mind of prejudice.
GNS: Yeah!
V-Sensei: โYou make this kind of music.โ
So, you guys get pigeonholed you feel if you get called a rapper? Thereโs an expectation?
GNS: From the general public, yeah. From the general public. If I met somebody new and I say Iโm a rapper, theyโd just be like, โOhโฆyou make this.โ
V-Sensei: Yeah. And they always go, โOh! Youโre a rapper?โ
GNS: Yeah!
V-Sensei: They say it like that and Iโm like, โI should have just said Iโm a musician. I make music.โ
GNS: Exactly, yeah. I say โartistโ because I produce as well, so itโs like I play guitar, I play keys, I can sing. Itโs almost like Iโm musically acclimatised, and โartistโ is a nice way of saying that. Itโs a whole rounded saying.
Sure, and it encompasses everything you do.
GNS: Exactly, yeah.
Yeah and you donโt want to be pigeonholed in anything you do, and I guess thatโs what weโre sort of talking about with like the sort of dissolving of all these labels, like โindieโ or โalternativeโฆโ
V-Sensei: If itโs going to dissolve, whatโs the point in having a title, you know?
GNS: Exactly.
At the minute, music is more accessible. Itโs like, โWell, Iโm not going to tell you what I do. Just discover it for yourself. If youโre into, youโre into,โ you know what I mean?
V-Sensei: Itโs like watching a movie, itโs down to interpretation. You can listen to my music and be like, โOh, heโs a singerโ and somebody else can listen to my music and be like, โOh, heโs a rapper.โ Because my little brother also found one of my songs this morning and thatโs how I know that I donโt promote my music enough. He was like, โI only found this out todayโ and he was like, โSo, youโre a singer?โ And I was like, โYes.โ Thatโs the thing. But like, yes, you know? And other people would find that same song and be like, โOh, you rap melodically?โ
Thatโs a good point because if someone just said, โIโm a singer,โ that could mean likeโฆ
V-Sensei: Like a choir. Opera.
Exactly! It could be anything. It could be death metal. It could be folk. It could be anything, you know what I mean? But when you say rap, people do have thatโฆI never even really thought about that.
GNS: Thatโs the biggest stigma in this industry, if that makes sense. I donโt know, though.
Do you think that will ever be broken? Now that hip-hop is evolving and I think not only that but everybody listens to hip-hop to some degree and it seems like everybodyโs being introduced to different expressions of hip-hop, which they would with, letโs say, rock music at one point. Do you think thatโs going to change at some point or do you think that stigmaโs always going to remain?
GNS: I think itโs changing but thereโs still the history and the background and the foundation of it. So, I donโt know, I think like Tyler is a rapper on his last album and heโs a rapper there, but heโs made sing songs. So, it is changing but itโs just notโฆitโs still going to have that same foundationโฆ
V-Sensei: Itโs not going to skew too far away from what it is.
GNS: Exactly, yeah.
V-Sensei: Itโs like Lil Yachty, before he dropped that new album there, everybody would still say heโs a rapper and then you drop into psychedelic rap and heโs like, โAre you experimenting with psychedelics?โ
GNS: Itโs an awkward conversation. I like it though because it helps you to get to know who you are as a person. Because you must be sure in yourself before you start putting art in the worldโฆ
V-Sensei: Oh, that is sick! That is so important!
GNS: If youโre not sure of yourself, you canโt go out there and sing and things like that, because theyโll tell you who you are and itโs like, โOh, so Iโm this and Iโm this?โ and you donโt want that. You want to be sure of who you are yourself before you go out and tell the world. Itโs dangerous. Itโs hella dangerous. Itโs not safe.
Well, I guess itโs also part of that self-producing, self-releasing thing, where itโs like, โI want my independence,โ and that includes the independence of your image.
GNS: Exactly.
Like, you donโt want your image being dictated by someone who doesnโt even know you, you know what I mean? [Laughs]
V-Sensei: Yeah!
You know, you donโt want them going, โOh, you make this kind of music.โ Itโs like, no. Challenge it. Give yourself a challenge. Check it out.
GNS: Exactly. I donโt know. Itโs interesting. I like it.
Perfect. Thanks very much for your time, guys. Appreciate it.
GNS: Thank you.
V-Sensei: Yeah, thank you.
GNS and V-Sensei’s new single “LOVE IS A LIE” is out now and available to stream here. You can follow GNS on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter, and V-Sensei on Instagram.
Aaron Kavanagh is the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Post-Burnout. His writing can also be found in the Irish Daily Star, Buzz.ie, Totally Dublin, The GOO,ย Headstuff, New Noise Magazine, XS Noize, DSCVRDย and more.
One response to “Artists and Producers GNS and V-Sensei Discuss Their Collab on New Single “LOVE A LIE,” the Breaking Down of Genres and Classification, How Working with Others Has Influenced Their Music, and the Power of Collectives”
This is a great read, very raw, and you can feel the character.